Should the Produnova vault be banned ?

I don’t know if this vault should be banned or not but something has to be done about it before someone breaks their neck attempting to land it.

The above video is just another example of a gymnast trying to code whore a routine because she know even if she doesn’t hit it she still gets credit for the vault as long as her feet touch the ground first.

What is your opinion? IMO I say make the vault a lower start value and if someone competes the vault and lands on their feet like Prudnova did than give them an execution score of 9.90. That way it encourages this vault only being done if the gymnast lands it like Prudnova did.

Unless you land it like this you should not be attempting it. PERIOD hell even Elena had shitty form on this vault but at least she didn’t look like she was going to die mid flight.

51 Responses to “Should the Produnova vault be banned ?”

  1. JAS4 Says:

    I’m not sure what the answer is either but something needs to be done because that is just insane! Lowering the start value could definitely help so gymnast attempting this vault would have to do it well to get a good score. Also I think it would be good to have put more tucked or piked vaults in the COP(if they aren’t already I am no code expert lol) for gymnast who have trouble with laid out vaults for example a DTY is worth 5.8 and if a gymnast gets an e score of like 8.5 because it looks messy and not completely laid out would get a 14.3 but if there was a tucked DTY in the code of points worth a 5.6 and they did that well and say they got a 9.1 e score it would be improving the score by 4 tenths I would much rather see someone do a nice tucked Amanar that see some of the ugly twisting barley rotated ones that are knee injuries waiting to happen

  2. Catherine Says:

    I want it gone. Either by being banned or through major disincentivisation – lower start value, much larger landing deductions for body position on landing..whatever works. It didn’t take them long to give one armed UB skills a B rating for being ‘dangerous’, effectively banning them. But this? Total silence. A 13 year old French girl is attempting this vault also.

    • Gymbee Says:

      Devalue it, that way if a Produnova mini-me comes along we’ll still get to appreciate it being done nicely, while the chuckers, Pena et al won’t die.

      • Melanie Says:

        I doubt anyone would try it if it was devalued. Even a Produnova mini-me wouldn’t risk it unless it was worth some major points.

  3. Karlie Says:

    Yeah, I want it devalued pronto. They should at least make the landing deduction MUCH larger than 1.0. I don’t want to see any paralysis resulting from mistakes on this vault.

  4. Case Says:

    I think it needs to be removed from the sport. It is insanely dangerous and one of these days the over or under rotation is going to cause a death. Unfortunately that might be what it takes to get it banned though.

  5. Exgymgurl Says:

    No one gets hurt and actually its a safer preflight than a yurchenko, and probably a safer landing as well…. I think prudonovas should be trained more heavily in the US as a way of getting a better advantage. Handspring vault entries used to be quite popular. I see no issue in continuing it, but I think any vault you sit on your ass should be -2

    • Catherine Says:

      Front multiple salto landings are the most dangerous of all. Despite the number of chucked amanars we’ve seen, only Mustafina comes to mind as an injury. Underrotating, driving a twist into the ground or locking a knee is the danger with twisting vaults/skills but landing a vault on your head/neck is a different ball game.

      Julissa crashed headfirst into the vault as a result of bad technique. Similar coaching outlook as the girls doing this vault now, but now we have the u-shaped mat and the vault table to make it a lot safer. Sang Lan was paralysed on a timer not an actual vault and presumably, it was one of those vaults that just don’t happen for the gymnast..the ones they end up balking or downgrading mid air for safety. Freak accident.

      • Exgymgurl Says:

        Bross anyone? Granted DTY but same thing injured… I dont know how or why you says altos are more dangerous. Everyone knows that much twisting seriously torques knees.

      • Melanie Says:

        We’re talking about the TYPE of injury here. A knee injury and a head injury are two very different things. One is life-threatening, the other isn’t.

      • uglyfatkid Says:

        Very true. One can mean gymnastic death while the other can simply mean death altogether.

        However, I think Exgym is just saying that there has been Musty and Bross both with knee injuries due to the DTY and Amanar vaults. Where there has not actually been any serious injuries (that we know of) on the Produnova. At this point, it’s all still theoretical injuries (though highly true and likely to happen when people chuck it).

      • Melanie Says:

        Well, sure, gymnasts can get injured on any skill. Hell, I broke my leg practicing a straddle jump on a trampoline (not something I’m especially proud of).

        The fact that no one’s been injured yet on a Produnova speaks more to the fact that there are only, what, maybe four gymnasts ever who’ve tried to compete it? And only one that’s successfully landed it. There are thousands and thousands of girls who do Yurchenko-style vaults. Sure, Musty got injured on an Amanar, and yet we’ve seen dozens of athletes compete it safely. Bross was an anomaly–I don’t think anyone would agree that we should ban the DTY because she got injured.

        Basically, the only gymnast who has ever competed the Produnova successfully was Produnova herself. There’s no good reason why the FIG has banned the Thomas salto and Korbut flips from the bar and devalued one-arm giants if this vault is still allowed. Just because one special gymnast CAN perform the skill doesn’t mean we should have tons of gymnasts attempting a dangerous skill for the chance that they’ll make an EF here and there.

      • uglyfatkid Says:

        I guess for me, it comes down to personal accountability and agency. I do NOT want anyone to get hurt…so please do not take this the wrong way…but who am I (or anyone) to say that no one can EVER do this vault successful but Produnova? So in that case…we should just ban it??

        I feel that it should be the choice of the gymnast (and parents if they are underage), coach, and federation. If they want to take the risk…it’s on them. Like you mentioned, people get injured doing far less since gymnastics is a sport of risk vs reward. Every time a gymnast starts a routine, there is risk involved. So where do we draw the line?

        I may sound callused, and I’m apologize if I am coming off as an a-hole…But if you can’t do the skill correctly/safely…DON’T. If you do and you get injured…it’s on you and your coach. I don’t think it’s right to ban a vault just because there has been 3 girls attempt it and fail. No one has gotten seriously injured yet, and perhaps they never will. Who knows??

        As I stated in my other post, I don’t think that Pena and this girl should be doing the vault. But that is their decision in the end….especially Pena’s. She is old enough to know the risks involved. And hopefully anyone underage has a coach and parent that wouldn’t let them do something they weren’t capable of doing. They have the choice to do the Amanar or some other vault if the so choose. It’s their choice to make.

      • gymtruthteller Says:

        You are stating your opinion which means by definition you are not coming off as an asshole. Ass kissers are not allowed at this

      • sanitynmotion Says:

        I personally like it when people have opinions, and don’t even care if they differ from my own! I find it interesting. Thank goodness for that or life would be boring.

      • uglyfatkid Says:

        LOL! Thanks GTT…I always worry that I’m coming off as some self righteous jerk. LOL =]

        And I agree Sanity. Even when I don’t agree, it gets me thinking about something differently which I like. Sometimes when I think about it for a while (weeks/months) I find someone’s comments sticking with me and it changes my mind in the end. I love that…it reminds me that I’m still a rational/sane person. Well, at least, most of the time. =]

      • Gymbee Says:

        Haha I broke both elbows on a front handspring! Freak accident.

      • Melanie Says:

        Haha, nice. I walked on mine for a week because, like a true gymnast, I was taught to deal with pain and suck it up. Until I could no longer fit my foot into any shoes…

      • uglyfatkid Says:

        Ouch. Sounds really painful.😦

      • Karlie Says:

        haha Melanie I did the same thing! Not the trampoline part – I broke my leg playing soccer – but I convinced myself it was just a sprain and walked around on it for like a week…until I couldn’t really walk/fit my foot into a shoe. Then I went in for an x-ray and they informed me that I’d broken my fibula and tibia. Oops.πŸ˜€

  6. uglyfatkid Says:

    Let me start by saying that I completely agree that Pena and this other girl should NOT be doing this vault. They are not capable of doing it. I think it’s stupid and dangerous for their coaches, federations, and parents (for those younger gymnasts) to allow their gymnasts to do vaults like these when they don’t have the power/skills to do them. To me, the first line of defense should be the coach. The coach should be the one saying, “Sorry, you’re not ready” or “There is no way I am allowing you to do that.” Where is the coach accountability in this? Or the federation??? Marta is a lot of things (which are mostly bad), but I hope she would have strong words with a coach if a gymnast was doing a vault like this (at least I hope she would).

    My problem with lowering the start value of the vault…is that it stops giving gymnasts something difficult to reach for. When the Amanar was first put into the COPs, Simona wasn’t performing it perfectly. That came a bit later for her after she had been performing it more. Then, other gymnasts started to try it, and a lot of them failed. Think of how many scary Amanars we have seen from the US girls alone…there have been more than a few that have left you holding your knee and cringing. But even with those bad Amanars, we have a vault now that is beautiful when it’s done right…and we have a bunch of girls doing them well (mostly in the US). It’s difficult, and gives the girls something new to reach for.

    To me, the start value isn’t the problem. It’s the deductions. There should be a deduction for out of control elements that is weighted severely. That would stop most girls from chucking skills in competition when they know they aren’t ready to do them right. That way it doesn’t penalize or hurt those few girls who can do the really hard skills (like the Mo on bars). It gives those few girls who are super talented the chance to be rewarded where they should be.

    In the end, if this particular vault is lowed I don’t care much…but it’s the principle that bothers me. What if they lowered the Amanar because of Musty’s accident? Or if they ban the Patterson from beam because of Bross (some of her dismounts were REALLY scary)? To me it hurts innovation and progression to lower skills…but I for sure don’t want to see people get her either. That’s why I think a hefty deduction is the best policy.

    In the end, the coaches of these girls need an ass chewing/kicking in my opinion. That’s where the true problem lies for me.

    • gymtruthteller Says:

      For me gymnasts that could maybe compete this vault are not the ones attempting it. Its gymnasts like the one above that have no business competing it that are attempting it.

      I think a lot of the reaction to this vault comes from the gymnasts attempting to compete it. When the Amanar was first done Simona was capable of it. Pavlova had a decent DTY when she attempted it. Now that these little no name gymnasts are attempting it and failing miserably I think it effects how I feel about it.

      It says a lot to me that no one who is a great vaulter is attempting this. It says how difficult it really is and proves at least to me anyway why it should not be allowed.

      Double front off beam is not really difficult compared to say this vault.

      • Case Says:

        I’d agree with this GTT. I know there have been injuries on the Yurchenko…but I feel like most of the time that vault is being attempted by gymnasts capable of safely executing.

        The Produnova has been a hot mess every time that I’ve seen it. That affects my opinion for sure.

      • uglyfatkid Says:

        You make great and valid points, but I guess there is part of me that wants to see someone like Biles, Julia, etc. compete this and more difficult vaults one day. If it gets banned, then a whole line of vaults go out the window (like the dragulesscu).

        And I agree about an double Arabian or a double front off beam…I was just trying to give another example of scary gymnastics.

        This whole things brings up something that Exgym mentioned above…why are we seeing less handspring entry vaults in general for women? Is it just a power thing?

      • gymtruthteller Says:

        Last thing I want to see if Simone blowing out a knee on a stupid vault she doesn’t even need.

      • uglyfatkid Says:

        I meant just in general.πŸ™‚ I want to see this and harder vaults done by the people who can actually do them. I wasn’t implying that Biles should take it up because she needs it (heaven knows she doesn’t). I just meant that she is the type of explosive vaulter that I could see being able to pull it off.

        Besides, i see her blowing out a knee more on the twisting centric vaults more than this one. If she ever gets the TTY that will be my biggest worry/concern for her.

  7. uglyfatkid Says:

    As a general question, who else has performed this vault at major competitions? Obviously other then Produnova, Pena, and the girl linked above? I honestly don’t know of others.

    We keep talking about scary vaults, and my mind really only can remember Pena. Can you guys/girls think of others?

    • JAS4 Says:

      It seems like there was maybe a Russian junior a while ago attempting one but I am not sure.

    • katie Says:

      Can’t think of any at all that have competed them. And I’m trying to think who could do a double front dismount off beam like produnova on the elite international level and no one comes to mind.

    • Catherine Says:

      A North Korean girl tried it at the 1980 Olympics, I forget her name. After that a big gap until Produnova. Now we have 3 plus one maybe who did it last year..Pena, Mahmoud, a Russian girl whose surname I forget who might have dropped the vault and sadly, a 13 year old French girl Coline Devillard who competed it recently.

  8. sainabou nyang Says:

    It should be banned. All it will take is some landing wrong and breaking their neck. Brandi and FIG would be crucified in the press.

  9. katie Says:

    It CAN be landed safely as we’ve seen prudunova do, but prudunova had a body type built like a spring and it served her best when it came to front tumbling. I don’tthink ASac even comes close. She constantly cowboyed but Prudo was in another stratosphere when it came to front tumbling. I agree with GTT that the Prudunova should be significantly downgraded in start value but anyone who can successfully land it with a controlled flight and landing should be greatly rewarded. It is crazy to think about how amanar and prodo were vaulting off the old table and managed to rock it.

    • sanitynmotion Says:

      Prudonova’s vault was totally cowboyed though. I actually thought ASac did a good job of not cowboying in her front tumbling (like on her Patterson on floor…damn I can’t think of what it’s called – not a Patterson on floor but hopefully you know what I mean). Totally blanking out.

      What a badass Prudonova was though for doing that vault on a horse – not even a table!

      • Karlie Says:

        The double arabian! Asac’s is one of the few that I’ve seen which isn’t cowboyed (Maroney’s is actually quite nice too, both of them keep their knees together in the air).

      • sanitynmotion Says:

        THANK you that was eluding me for some reason! Yes, hers was one of the best for not being so cowboyed (I haven’t really seen Maroney’s from the front angle). ASac’s was always nice I thought.

      • Catherine Says:

        The best are Anna Myzdrikova’s and Inga Schkarupa’s, though Maroney and Asac certainly do it justice.

      • Katie Says:

        When I said “she constantly cowboyed” I meant produnova. I did not write that clearly. I love ASacs front tumbling but I still thought Prudo blew her away for some reason, even with the form issues.

  10. Exgymgurl Says:

    Just make that landing and Maroneys olympic butt landing a minus 2 and you will all of a sudden see a lot less vault chucking….

    • Gymbee Says:

      What would the rule be though, since she apparently landed with her feet first? I guess just a heavier penalty on uncontrolled landings, no matter if the feet landed first for a split nanosecond?

  11. sanitynmotion Says:

    After reading everyone’s arguments, I’m siding with the notion that not enough deduction is taken for uncontrolled landings. It shouldn’t be about putting your feet to the mat first; it should be about LANDING the vault i.e. staying on your feet. If you don’t do that, you get an automatic 2-point deduction. Let’s face it a big proponent of vault is the landing. You mess that up you should pay dearly for it.

    This way we’d see less events like butt-landings still making podium (sorry Cheng and Maroney, but you shouldn’t have medaled in your Olympics). In my opinion if you land on your ass you shouldn’t medal. If you did that on any other apparatus you wouldn’t; vault shouldn’t be any difference especially since a huge portion of that score is based on how you landed it.

    • Gymbee Says:

      I like that, a heavy 2 point deduction if failing to clearly control the landing.
      What about people who land and takes 3 huge steps, still 2? I like that butt-planting is 0 though. How about, if your bottom touches the ground at any time (even if “landing” on feet first), it’s a 0?

      • sanitynmotion Says:

        I’d say three large steps would be what, 0.5 point for each step? I think that’s what it is? So 1.5 point deduction. If you fall on your ass or your hands touch the mat you incur a 2.0 point deduction.

        It just doesn’t make sense you can fall on vault and still have a high score with high difficulty but on any other apparatus, if you fall you’re guaranteed to be out of podium range no matter what the difficulty level.

        Falling on your ass on vault should be like landing on your ass or back in a high dive competition.

      • Catherine Says:

        Well, Li Shanshan medalled in 07 BB EF with a fall. The rest aside from VT have been AA though, where it’s easier to absorb a fall especially when the field is weak.

    • uglyfatkid Says:

      Couldn’t agree more Sanity!! =]

  12. ilanchik20 Says:

    Similar discussion at Rewriting Russian Gymnastics. Maybe Produnova should just teach others how to do itπŸ™‚

  13. Exgymgurl Says:

    Why are we talking about banning it for the next girl who like Prudonova can do it safely? Why are we penalizing her for a bunch of unsafe idiots? FIG should issue federations to unsafe federations and ban skills.

  14. Exgymgurl Says:

    Not ban skills and issue penalties to unsafe federations. Sorry all.

  15. JAS4 Says:

    I think the idea of an automatic deduction of 2points for a fall and maybe even another deduction on top of that like 0.5 or more for vaults that are particularly out of control (like nearly landing on your head!)

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